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You were in one of the earliest CLP Cohorts, so I don’t know if you did the exercise around identifying and clarifying personal values. We’re each given five index cards and something to write with, and we’re asked to write our top five values down, one each on the five cards. Then we have to set one card aside, and we’re left with our top four core values. Then we set another aside, and so on, until we’re left holding the card with our number one, top value. What is your current One right now and why?
This is tricky, because we did not do that exercise. A core value; you mix in qualities like determination or something like that. But a value is something you measure against.
When I first did the exercise, I had no idea, not coming from a religious or other background that talked explicitly about values. I looked to my left and right, and saw other people writing things like love, contribution, integrity, family, respect.
My thought was already going to integrity, though it sounds a little boilerplate. Actually, I think I will go with optimism. Integrity’s important, but maybe optimism is more important, and more interesting.
Can you say more?
I think that we have an influence on what the outcomes are in many of the things in our lives. If we think about the possibilities of things, it’s much more likely that we’re going to be able to put the pieces in place to make the better outcomes possible.
Optimism also allows you to interact with somebody who’s in a difficult situation, and maybe see the better potential for them, not to pigeonhole them into what they are at that moment or what you’ve experienced people in the same situations to be.
Maybe that’s optimism related to open-mindedness, related to seeing possibilities. The opposite of just being skeptical and pessimistic. Though I will say you shouldn’t be Pollyanna, you should be realistic. I like to game out the scenarios that might be negative, but with an underlying hope that the optimistic condition is achievable.
How do you think about the connection between optimism and hope or faith?
I think optimism is the ability to see potential, and to believe that it is possible. That that potential is achievable — although not inevitable.
I suppose maybe there’s a different word than optimism — maybe it’s realistic optimism. I feel like optimists are seen as people who fully expect the best outcome. I think the best outcome is possible, but you must work for it. And there’s also an element of chance.
If I were going to say how hope interacts with that, I would say that’s optimism manifested. So, the optimism is conceptual in your head, and the hope is a little more visceral, that you are hoping for an outcome. Though, I don’t know — hope doesn’t necessarily, at least to me, suggest your own actions and interventions. Hope seems a little passive.
I wondered about that, whether optimism connects more with agency for you than hope does.
Yeah, I think it does, though I think that you are a small piece of a big, dynamic system. And so yes, we can have control and we can do our part, but it’s a small lever in a big system. So you do have to have hope, because you can’t entirely rely on your own agency. You’re on the team, but the rest of the team has to be interacting and the conditions have to be right for things to go well.
So yes, I guess optimism is not without hope.
When it comes to faith — I don’t come from a religious background, I was raised in a non-religious household. I think the word faith is most commonly associated with religious experience. Though, if I were to think about it a little more abstractly, when I think about faith I do think about putting yourself to a bigger system. Submitting to the idea that there are greater things at play, and often it’ll lead to a better outcome because of that.
And so I guess I have faith, perhaps skeptical faith, it’s not blind for sure. In institutions, in people, in the goodness of people, in how we can figure things out together. Society has tons of problems, but lots of great things happen. Lots of positive interactions, lots of wonderful stuff that if you’re not paying attention, can pass you by.
Do you want to say anything about integrity?
I think integrity is just not lying to yourself or others, and being true to what you are in that time. It’s also to be true to the rules and systems and so on, that you have agreed to be a part of. The larger social contract sense. We agree that honesty is important, these sorts of things.
I guess integrity is having a set of values that are not fair weather. That are foundational and consistent.
I appreciate the way all your reflections have to do with individual presence and responsibility, while also being a part of a larger ecosystem.
Well, you’re getting a window into how I think!
What is one big, burning leadership question you are wrestling with these days?
That’s a tough one. There are so many little ones.
I don’t know if it’s that I’m actively wrestling so much as just thinking about it. I’m a co-founder of an organization that I’ve built up over the past 12 years. There was a group at the very beginning, and the close follows, those who came quickly after.
I’m happy doing what I’m doing, and I want to see it be successful and so on. I’m aware that nobody is the same, and stays in the same place, forever.
So, it’s thinking about that system and how do you make it successful, and make it successful in a way that it can change in the way it needs to. I do know that founders and folks that build up organizations over time, often cast a big shadow or often have a lot of influence that can stop something from being what it needs to be as it adapts to the needs around. And there is some interplay between that and having some fidelity to an original principle.
What made it unique and interesting is that it filled a different niche than was available at the time. You want to maintain that independent thinking and vibe, and have the flexibility to change with the times.
I’m hesitant to say “succession,” because I don’t want to freak anybody out on my board [laughing] — there’s nothing driving that, other than I’m thinking in a what do you do in a 10- or 20-year time horizon.
We were volunteer-only for quite a while. I was working at the United Way and was part-time consulting — technology and websites for nonprofits. I really appreciated that Jack Healy, the United Way leader at the time, believed in entrepreneurship and gave me that flexibility.
With other people, I volunteered at Make Haven a lot, eventually being hired as executive director.
Do you want to say more about the co-founders?
Many of them were personal friends, and also many that we found connecting through MeetUps.
There was a vision, folks that were there saw the trends. 3-D printing was arising, YouTube was teaching people they could do things more independently, and 100 other little trends that made those folks believe it was the time for something like this.
We got together regularly, and started solidifying it; some of us started putting 50 bucks a month in before there was a space. We were lucky to have some folks who were able to be generous and help us get a kick start both with time, space, and money — and we were away!
I appreciate the sweat and the optimism, the hope of bringing something cool which I would say exceeds what we had envisioned as possible.
What inspires you, gives you hope these days?
I think being around people that are striving to make new and better things. People that see that there are plenty of things in the world that can be improved and made better.
Most obviously is innovators. People who are inventors, who are building something because they saw an opportunity. And the folks around them that realize that there’s still much to be done. It’s not like everything has been invented; not everything has been perfected by any means. And if you spend some time with things, and you bring that optimism and hope and some creativity, it’s likely that you can come up with something that makes people’s lives better.
How great that you witness and hold space for that on a day-to-day basis.
Yeah, absolutely. My brother is that type as well, so I have it in the family. And my dad was an inventor type. It’s something I’ve been steeped in for a while.
Would you say you’re that type?
In a manner, in my own domain. I think I have enjoyed doing some social entrepreneurial stuff. Prior to Make Haven, I did the MeetUp about technology and social change, which eventually was one of the precursors — combined with other things — that became Make Haven. I worked with other community members to get the Mill River Trail going, and I’ve been involved with a number of organizations to help them go.
I have a few inventions that are more on the shelf. Some day when I get the time, I’ll perfect and share them.
The work of transformational change can be hard. Stepping in, stepping up, over time, can be draining — physically, intellectually, emotionally, psychically, spiritually. How do you recharge, restore, take care of yourself, rekindle your fire?
I feel really fortunate that I have a lot of things in place that have been good for me. For example, nature — love being outdoors. In particular I love the water, so I go canoeing and organize canoeing events and activities. That’s one of the drivers of the Mill River Trail, appreciation of water. I have a small sailboat that was given to me for free, and I fix it up and share it with friends, and get out on the water.
That connection to nature is restorative and just part of life. It’s not like there was a crisis and I went out in nature and meditated — it’s just there.
Of course it’s friends, and having had friends who are there, and consistent and show care, and also that I can show care for, that you reach a level where the masks are down. I’m fortunate to have relative economic stability and those things. I just consider myself lucky.
And I’d say maybe as a personality trait — I do like to carry a load. If you’re going hiking, I like to feel tired hiking up that hill. If it’s working at an organization, I like to feel my strengths being deployed. You want to feel that your capabilities are being tested and utilized.
We’re all in a way like a beast of burden, you want to drive against something, you want to push it forward. And so, even when things are hard, I think that I receive a certain energy from that challenge. Where it is more difficult for me is where things are frustrated. And by frustrated, I mean you hit some point where you are caught in a loop doing the same things, unable to invest in the longer term, and just making it through, making it through, making it through, treading water if not behind.
There’s times, but fortunately — by good fortune — most times I’ve found myself in situations where I could get enough of a foothold to pull away from the frustrating cycle.
It reminds me of the machines that break down if you don’t use them; we’re like that too.
Sure. And I think that’s something that I’ve found. I mean, everybody knows the feeling of being satisfied having done something well. And a rest only makes sense after having had a challenge.
Introduce us to someone you are/were close with personally (e.g., family, teacher, friend, mentor), who shaped (or shapes) you and how you view leadership and possibility for a better community/world?
Gee that’s hard, because there are so many people. And so much is a mixture and amalgamation of different ideas and supports. And nobody’s a hero, nobody’s perfect. [laughing]
My first thought goes to both my parents — I can’t not mention them.
I think the next is a professor in college, Dr. Sandy Hulme, who was my model United Nations coach at Alma College in Michigan. He was a unique character — driven, sometimes difficult, and very pragmatic.
We did these debate competitions, essentially. There’s a team, very serious about it. I participated in it for four years, was able to bring a lot of fun and creativity. Being part of a team was great; being driven, the lessons of working hard and working through various international things, learning about refugees.
I remember some speeches that he had before we went out, about these “collisions” in life, and how we would all run into each other as adults, and the world is smaller once you really get down to it.
He was also my advisor. I was worried about not getting my minor in art, and he was like, “Don’t worry about it, go and have good experiences.” [laughing]
We all knew as students who gave A’s and who didn’t. The advice was, take the one you’re going to learn something in, not the one you’re going to get the A in. So I ended up taking the classes from the professors that were more quirky, more interesting, more challenging. I didn’t always get the A’s. I thought that was good advice — don’t optimize for the grade, optimize for the experience.
There’s many other people that had an influence. But going through college on a team is a time of high impact.
What was your major?
Political science, which led into nonprofit stuff. Knowing enough about it, I wasn’t sure I wanted to get into politics. [laughing] The direct approach, being on the ground seemed better for my temperament and talents.
And you know, speaking of my temperament back then and CLP; I came out of grad school, and I do have an engineering-type mind. This causes that, and this causes that.
It was a little bit of a stretch, some of the softness of CLP. I was trying to get things done. I’m new, and I want to be a mover and shaker, and I’m building big spreadsheets, and analyzing things, and trying to use those skills to make a big difference. I remember the aspect of hospitality, and I appreciated the personalities, but I did struggle with the pace and softness of it. On my evaluation immediately after, I probably said something like, “you could do it in half the time.” [laughing]
But over time, I’ve come to appreciate how taking time for those things is really important for your long-term perspective and health. To chill out about doing things perfectly.
What do you recommend to us, in each of these categories:
- Reading – Reading the Forested Landscape: A Natural History of New England. It’s a really neat book; a series of images that are carved images, depictions of the landscape of New England. Basically, he plays a mystery game: “what do you think happened here?” Was it a sheep pasture, was this a logging mill, what was happening here at different stages in history. And then he goes through a forensic forest analysis, tells you his take on it. You can see how there’s these open sores on the trees at the bottom, and they’re all facing inwards towards each other, which indicates that somebody was pulling sleds of logs on wagon carts through this area. Or, all the trees are a certain age, and there’s something called a “mast year,” a reproductive strategy where trees will coordinate when they produce the most seeds for a certain species. So there will be a year that’s a highly productive year for a particular tree. Because this is all filled with beech trees, we know that there was a fire that burned everything down in this year. He’s able to walk through and give you this whole history. It’s one of those books that changes your perception. So now as you walk through the New England landscape that we see, you can’t look at a stone wall and not wonder if it’s one made for holding in sheep or one that was just the convenience of a farmer moving the rocks as they till.
- Listening – Audio book, Surely You’re Joking, Mr. Feynman! It’s a book of small stories and anecdotes, written by a physicist including their time on the Manhattan Project.
- Eating – Salad. I’m not a real foodie. [laughing]
- Watching – I really love the new Bladerunner 2049, it was just great. I love the pace, it was different and slow. Other than that, I really liked For All Mankind on Apple TV, reimagining history where we the Russians get to the moon first, and then America has a confidence crisis and decides to try and get to Mars. It’s an alternate history, it’s really fun to see it reimagined, and the values of exploration.
- Laughing – Find humor in everything. Any of your own foibles, there’s normally a chuckle in there.
- Wildcard – your choice – Don’t be so hard on yourself.
Interview with The Circle creative director & editor Lara Herscovitch. To reach Lara directly: thecircle@clpnewhaven.org or Lara@LaraHerscovitch.com
Learn more about MakeHaven and the Mill River Trail
Get in touch with JR directly: johnrichardlogan+CLP@gmail.com